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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Im pretty sure I have Finished running my engine in and its time for tuning.

The manual is confusing me a bit about settings for running in / Base Settings.

because there is the main manual and then another smaller one dedicated to the engine and they both state different settings.

In the main large manual it says: to screw the HSN all the way in and then un screw it out 4 turns. In the Engine Manual it says 3 turns. For the LSN both manuals state 0.5 millimeters in from or below flush.

So when I first ran the engine in (to be extremely safe) I made the HSN 5 & 1/2 turns out from closed and the LSN Flush. I did this because I wanted to make sure It was super rich and nowhere near lean. I figured that the worst that could happen is that it wouldnt start and I would have to lean thngs up slightly till it started, how ever it did start. It stalled a few times, and I leaned things up slightly until it idled on its own without stalling.

It had small amount of smoke coming out during idle, and was spitting & dripping raw fuel.

I Ran one tank like that, up on a block without squeezing the throttle.

2nd tank I gave it just enough throttle to engage the clutch and did small tight figure 8 patterns in a tarmac car park.

on the 3rd tank I went in straight lines about 25 metres long reaching half throttle for no more than half a second. I reach half throttle by slowly squeezing on the throttle, not stabbing.

I have run another 4 tanks through it without exceeding half throttle.

Then Today I changed the glow plug. My new plugs are O.S. Brand No 10's (formerly A5) Cold. I have since read that cold plugs may be no good for me as I am running 20% Nitro (redback brand fuel) But this is the shop that sold me the car and with it sold me spare plugs and first fuel. At the shop they have the fuel in little sections called Entry fuel, sports, race etc, mine is entry fuel. I assume it has more oil.

So anyway, today on the nineth tank, with a new plug, i decided I would try leaning things off a little. I think I have LSN ok, but its way further out than what factory suggests (0.5mm below flush) the head of my LSN needle is about flush. It is idleing well and is quite zippy off the line but stlill makes plenty smoke. However when I do reach full throttle today it bogs down, sounds like engine will die but it doesnt. Can an engine still bog down from being too rich? Also after giving Full throttle and it bogging down, when I release my finger off the throttle, engine idle goes very low for several seconds then returns to normal.

I also did a pinch test, today and it seemed to go on for ever, so I gave up on that, I now realize this means too rich.

Most videos I have watched talk about about bogging at high speed when too lean, but none mention the result of HSN being too rich when LSN is about right?

So my querstions are:

Have I ran it in safely?

Am I heading in the right direction?

Now that I have ran 9 tanks through it rich, will I do damage from stalling the engine from accidentally being too lean a couple of times. If I suspect lean ness I wont be running the car proper, I will just zip up and back then adjust.

This is far more difficult than I ever dreamed to learn on my own. I live in the middle of nowhere and there is no one here in my town who can help (Finley, NSW) Nearest club is Shepparton VIC ( I live 30km north of VIC Border) so really I can only ask here and read posts and watch videos. Also even if I knew someone, I have no way of knowing how much they know, I am concerned if I just go to the shepparton track and get someone to help, they may just wreck the car coz they really didnt have a clue :/

Id really love to get a discussion going, particularly with anyone familiar with the Kyosho inferno Neo 31295t (model number) and its .21 GX-21 BK

Any and all help appreciated :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I did make a small amount of video of todays run, but camera batt was not charged much so I onlymade a little bit. Am ripping it off camera now and will upp it to youtube. I hope sound is good :/
 

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From everything you have written and the video you posted, I would say you are far too rich on the HSN...no need to touch the LSN at this point, you need to get the engine breathing first.
Get the engine running and warmed up a little and give it a quick run, turn the HSN in ½ turn from where is currently is, and then give it a couple of passes to clear the engine, listen to the way the engine runs, if it is still bogging down, take another ½ turn in on the HSN...dont go below the 4 turns....see how the engine is running, if it is clearing the fuel and running sweetly and you are happy, set your idle and done.

You should still have a blue trail of smoke coming out of the pipe...this is a good thing, it is letting you know the oil is doing it's job, protecting the engine, then burning up and exiting the engine...no smoke equals possible engine damage.

If after you have reached the 4 turns out on the HSN, and you are still not happy with the tune, you can still lean the HSN a little more....BUT...at smaller increments, 1/16-1/8 turn at a time, give the car a couple of high speed passes and listen carefully to the engine, they make a distinct pinging noise when lean, smoke almost disappears, and most times the car will scream off and then nose dive as the engine runs out of fuel, after a second or two the engine will pop back to life, but running that lean will do your engine damage.

Hope you find this useful
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
thanks heaps towie, that helps put things in perspective. The LSN (I suspect) is only 1/16th of a turn rich now. for a Short while I had it running so nice in the low end, then I figured I would turn it back rich a tiny bit while I play with the HSN. Tomorrow I will start at 5 turns out from closed on the HSN, and keep winding her in 2 x 1/4 turns, then 4 x 1/8 turns, then 16ths after that if requiring further leaning. Its quite pains taking the way I am doing this, but coz I will be maintaining two Cars, I really cant be buying new parts or engines from not taking good care to do things right. I ordered an IR thermometer from ebay, but its running a little late. I wish it would hurry up. I really want it at the very least for knowing when I have reach operating temp. It would also be handy for double checking my idle via temp.

Thanks again dude :D
 

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Honestly, I have never used a thermometer to tune an engine, I find they confuse the issue way too much

You will hear the engine long before a temp gun will become useful, all I use them for is checking that the running temps are within manufacturers spec, and even then, I only use the temps as a guide, preferring to rely on my ears as the final assessment.

You are right though, tuning from scratch with no one else to give you pointers on the spot is the hard way to learn, but with a little care, most people pick it up fine, the important thing to remember, take your time, and go softly, a little rich is always better than too lean, a slightly rich engine rarely fails, a lean engine usually burns.
 

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What about after run oil towie?

When I had nitro they advised to use it. Cheap insurance supposedly. The engine was second hand so I thought can't hurt, still ran when I parted with it, but I would have only put 2-3 full tanks through it. I wasn't told at the time the chassis was bent = chew out drive gears in no time flat. Hence the so little use. I'd confidently go nitro again now though.

Anyway sorry for the thread hijack.

After run oil yes or not really needed?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
yeh go9tta get me some after run oil. It doesn't mention it in the manual and the Hobby shop never mentioned/sold me any. But seems like a great idea, in fact I will order some straight after making this post.

With the IR Thermometer, I would still really like one so I know when I have reached operating temp as opposed to using it for tuning. Id like to know that I am within limits, I think it would also help so I can hear the difference in the engines sound and referencing that with a thermometer.

At the moment I am actually periodically placing a small dab of saliva on the top of the heat sink as well as touching it. I am yet to see the saliva boil, but it usually evaporates very quickly.

While running in, I have been able to touch the top of cyl head/heat sink with hand/fingers for about 3 or 4 secs before it became too uncomfortable to touch, but yesterday (while that video was shot) it was too hot too touch for more than a split second at a time. I would have loved to know what the temp was around the glow plug.

Anyways last night I found a playlist of videos (made by a kid all of 12 to 14 years old) that was fantastic and explained very well. He shows HSN too rich & Too lean, while many other vids only show too lean.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD5F8517C6D255590

Some of his runs remind me very much of my wife's car. (the one I was working on yesterday) mine is in the mail now. Mine is the race spec model, but I assume the tuning wont be very different between my wife's .21 and my .25 Its a bit odd the race spec has a .25 and standard spec has a .21 considering official buggy 1/8th races dont allow bigger than .21 :/ oh well be a while before we race LOL.

I also found this flowchart in another thread, but before I went leaning the HSN I needed to know that I wawsnt already bogging from being to HSN lean, now the flow chart will be a great help.

http://www.ausrc.com/forum/showthread.php?22410-Engine-Tuning-Flowchart-Tuning-Made-Easy!

Today I will do pinch test to confirm LSN is right. (while pinching fuel line, idle should raise tiny bit and motor cut out after 3 to 4 seconds. If motor dies immediately means LSN too lean, if motor idles on Longer than 5 seconds or forever means LSN too Rich yeah?) And will then Tune the HSN.

After your help towie and that pommie kids playlist I feel very confident of tuning. Cant wait actually.

Thanks again and now I am off to order some after run oil :D
 

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After run oil is one of those points that some agree on and some don't...usually ends in a heated discussion, so, I will tell you my thoughts, and let everyone make their own decisions...

I use it...and the reason why....after you have finished for the day, even after you drain the tank, there is residue left in the lines, bottom of the tank, and inside the engine, the fuel has the ability to absorb water molecules from the air....so IMO, that means there is sufficent moisture for rust to begin forming, in the bearings, and anywhere that moisture could affect the metal within the engine...the fuel is also acidic, which can have an adverse affect on alloy, brass, chrome (the composition of all ABC motors)

To prevent this happening, I drain the lines and tank by running the engine until it is cleared out, and then try to re-start a couple more times, this removes the majority of left over fuel residue, but not all, I then add a couple of drops of after run oil in the carb, and down the glo plug hole and cover the hole with a clean rag, wind the engine over for a couple of seconds to allow the oil to spread through the engine and down the pipe, wipe any excess off the engine and replace the plug.

I have never had an engine seize due to rust or corrosion, even engines that have been in storage for years still turn over and fire up with a fresh batch of fuel....I cant say for certain that my theory works, but I can say that it appears to, so for $6-$10 worth of after run oil....I will stick to using it because I trust my theory.

I know guys that tell me it is a pile of crap, and these guys are usually the ones that are replacing engines on a regular basis....don't get me wrong, I am happy to sell them as many engines as they want, and if they don't want ARO, I don't shove it down their throat....I am happy to let them believe in their own theory as much as I am to practice mine
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
just an update, ive got the neo tuned well and have my race spec now too. the diff between the basic neo and race spec is not much, they are almost identical except the following. the std spec has no ARB's, and has a .21 motor. the race spec has front and rear ARB's and a .25 motor (KE25) which seems to have big increase in power, particularly at the top end over the .21 that comes with std spec neo. however , while the .21 is easy to start the .25 can be difficult even with new gloplugs. the receivers are the same but the tx's are a little different. the tx with the std spec neo has no LCD it has little knobs/potentiometers for adjusting all trims, end points etc. the one that comes with race spec uses an LCD display and menus and buttons to make all adjustments and i think i actually like the std spec tx better as easier to make adjustments quicker while driving/racing than having to navigate a confusing and hard to remember menu system on a very simple LCD.

The servos on both models are the same but are apparently poor quality and after having my first race last weekend my steer servo makes a slight click sound while passing through middle of right steering. im looking to replace with intech brand metal gear servo's but dont know what type are compatible. (if anyone can help me figure that out, id be grateful)

I also need to upgrade shocks as they are mostly nylon and they apparently wont last through the summer.. i just dont know where to start when selecting parts that weren't particularly made for this model. turns out my two neo's are now discontinued and parts are becoming scarce. these neo's are dumbed down versions of the inferno mp7.5 most parts are interchangeable but mp7.5 is also discontinued and parts are scarce, so any advice/suggestions are most welcome / needed. happy driving all.

Jersey Curtain Sleeve Sportswear T-shirt
 

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When tuning an engine, before anything else, check the idle gap in the carb, all tuning is based around the idle gap.
Look down the carb & with throttle in neutral or closed position, check how far the carb slide is open, you want between .5 & .7mm air gap, I use a small paper clip thats bent straight, measured at .6mm thick. Slide it between the carb slide & carb throat then adjust idle so the paper clip just fits in the air gap, not to tight & not loose, you shouldn't need to touch idle after this.
If your engine is idling high after this then the LSN needs to be richened to bring idle down to correct level, not to low either, alot of people try to get idle to low which causes other issues. If idle is to low & engine stalls then lean the LSN to bring idle up, not to high though, just so its ticking over smoothly.
Now, when adjusting the HSN, starting from flush with HSN housing is a good start, remember that the HSN also effect the LSN, this is because the HSN is where the fuel enters the engine so its the HSN that regulates the fuel to the LSN also, because of this, when you lean the HSN, you also slightly lean the LSN (same when you richen HSN, LSN is richened slightly) which will cause idle to rise, don't touch the idle screw though as that was set earlier, use the LSN & richen it slightly to bring idle down, all adjustments should be kept to 1/12th to 1/8th of a turn. I like to look at the needles like a clock, 1/12th of a turn is 1 hour, so only adjust 1 hour at a time.
Once the low end is running good with a good idle, then adjust the top end, give it a run to clear out the engine then let it sit & idle, if top end is to rich it will bog down so you can lean the HSN, just 1 hour then test again, give it a run & see how the top end is, if still bogging then lean it 1 more hour, if it starts idling high then richen LSN a little to get correct idle.

As for a temp gauge, they are handy for checking temps & keeping an eye things but all engines run differently & it also depends on other things like weather temp, humidity & altitude so going my the manufacturers manual is not always the best approach, just a guideline. If your engine is running good between 200F & no more than 280F then it should be fine, my engine normally runs around the 250F mark, depends on weather, on the same day, my brothers engine would run about 200-220F.
Tune for performance & only use temp for checking its within the right range & make sure you have a slight trail of smoke.
Also, if you can find another brand of fuel then I suggest you do it, Redback is not as good a quality as fuels like NEO+, Nitro X, Werks, VP Pro, & a few others, more oil is not always better either, it can reduce performance & give no extra protection than a good quality fuel with top quality oils.

As for ARO, its just added security for your engine, can also use ATF (auto trans fluid), I haven't tried it but have read about a fair few who do & it works well. If you get ARO then try to find a quality brand, just like fuel, its not all the same & some are better than others.

For servo's, the RTR stuff won't normally take much abuse, specially in a racing environment, but there are some good standard servo's that suit 1/8 buggies well, price can vary but for around $80 you can get the Savox sc1256tg, its a decent servo with good power, I run mine on a 2s LiFe pack, 6.6v pack for a little extra kick, they last longer than Nimh to.

If your after a good radio that will do everything you need then check out the Sanwa/Airtronics MT-4, great radio for the price & while it may cost a little more than the rtr type stuff, it will make a huge difference to your driving, they really do help.

Hope I haven't confused you, good luck.
 

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Well done, third in your first race!

I'm trailing ATF as aro at the moment, only been a couple of runs, but no issues as yet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Good info there ozziii regarding the idle gap: I havent seen them for a while but there are such things as round (like pins kind of) feeler gauge sets. Instead of being flat like normal feeler gauges they are actually round like pins. These may be handy for checking carb gap. I keep meaning to get some when I at my nearest city.


brainless-esc:

The Only reason I got a Third Ribbon was coz there was only three people in my race LOL. Plus because I was waaaaaay too slow to race in Pro Buggy, they put me in with the EP's It was a father and son they had these things that looked like F100's or something and they where not very fast (but still faster than me LOL)

I cant wait to get on track again. In Fact I cant wait to drive again, but sadly there is no where to bash in my town really. the gravel roads, gravel is way to large and does damage to the rear swing arms, + plus a few rocks keep jamming in different places too. Hopefully when I get full membership to Barmah RC Club, I will be allowed to practice every weekend.

Happy Nitro'ing :D

 

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I just went to the newsagent & grabbed a box of small paper clips, pretty sure they were .6 or .7mm, the bigger paper clips were around 1mm so a little to big. Paper clips are cheap, come in a box of around 100pcs & if you loose them it don't matter, same if you lend them to people, doesn't matter if you get them back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
yeh i need .5 / .4 or rather needed. I ended up using that green garden tie wire with plastic stripped off. also you can get these little files for making the slots for frets on a guitar fret board, they can be used as feeler gauges too, only they are long, cylindrical instead of flat, perfect for this kind of thing.

I have now out grown my inferno as I have been a very Keen driver, I purchased a 2nd hand Intech BR 5 Pro evo with Novarossi motor, savox servos and a tonne of other stuff. hers a video of me now :D

 

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Sounds like you got a good package with the Intech, meant to be a good buggy from what I understand.
The video is good, did you make it, been a while since I have been to them tracks, have to get back there one day.
 

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Haha 3rd out of 3 is better than dnf! ;D

Do either of your cars have gyro?

Mine is all over the place like a dog on wet lyno!

I'm thinking of getting the HK version, but will keep investigating ATM.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Just thought I would now answer my own original post plus some updates, in case any other Noobs come along looking for info when first starting out in Nitro RC.

1st Thing: Get into a club ASAP, I cant stress it enough (I realize many will be a great distance from a club, but even if only once per month, make the effort, you wont be sorry) Some guys there may be douche bags, but most wont be, or at the very least there will be someone there who is eager to see new blood joining the hobby. These people will help you more than any reading or youtube video can to learn tuning and everything else you need to know.

2nd: DO NOT get frustrated and quit, it will all come together for you in less than a few months. you may even go through a phase where you are not getting any quicker and you peers/rivals are decades faster than you, just push through it, all of a sudden you will get much quicker. Thats what happened to me.

3rd: Use self control. When you first hit the track your instinct will be to go as fast as you can, but you will spin wheels (excessively), miss your brake markers, overshoot your turn, get disorentated, maybe even hurt a marshall, lol. Use self control and use small amounts of smooth throttle, learn to use the brakes as much as possible (but practical lol) and learn the layout of your track, unless of course you have heaps of money and ready to go spare parts or an Intech buggy (they are almost bullet proof)(Ask anyone who owns one)

So there are some basic tips for ppl who just got a car.

Update where I am at now?!?!?

Well I now own an Intech Br-5 Evo Pro with all the fruit and trimmings. A nice guy at my club sold it to me with a KO Pro Po Radio sys for $550 2nd hand) it was in really good nick and had jus been rebuilt. I have never scored another ribbon since my race (above) where I cam third. I got good a little too quick and became too fast to race against the Short Course guys, so now I race with the big boys which include some Australian Champions and Worlds Contenders, including Matty Griffin and Ronny Mayer at my club. So it will be some time before I get a podium at my club :( Though I do intend traveling with my wiofe to other tracks where hopefully they will have a novice Division and I may have a better chance of podium success there.

I handed Down my Kyosho infernos to my wife who had her first race a week ago. They created (for the day) A Combined novice class and she won!. There was two 1/10th Short Courses, 1 x 1/8th Short Course, a 1/8th EP Buggy and a ten year old girl driving a 1/8th Nitro who amazingly came second :O. Given that it was her first ever race, and she actually won it, I am super crazy proud of her. She mostly tookl my advice (broke the car twice)(but we have a spare car for parts) made a tonne of mistakes, but not as many as the others and Won! On Ya Kirst. So naturally she is Hooked and will be getting an Electric Buggy next week end instead of running the nitro. Its too difficult for us to both run Nitro Buggy. I am only a beginer myself and it was very stressfull trying to prepare & Manage two Nitro Buggy's as well as Race and Marshall. At least if she runs electric we can pit for each other, she only need know how to change tires and charge battery's (other than driving) for now. She can learn about Tuning the cars set up later. Then I can just worry about my own stuff. I can litterally "set her & Forget her" lol. Here is a highlights video of her race last week end:

The only thing I am sorry about is that I waited till I was 39 years old before starting in RC Car Racing, I shoulda started years ago. I always loved motor racing, but I always thought I would someday race a car, it wasn't until I came to the realization and understanding that I will never be able to race and take part in full seasons of full scale motorsport, its just soooo expensiove. No matter how good you are, you must buy your drive for at least the first few years before a major sponsor considers paying for your drive, I know, I have some close friends in high profile motorsport. I even looked into Karting, but when you count the cost of every single thing you need it is about 5 times as much as racing a nitro buggy. So I found Nitro Buggy racing and it is indeed satisfying my need for motor racing. I mean, it is motor sport, just miniaturized.

Happy Racing everyone, hope to see you on Track one Day ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Haha 3rd out of 3 is better than dnf! ;D

Do either of your cars have gyro?

Mine is all over the place like a dog on wet lyno!

I'm thinking of getting the HK version, but will keep investigating ATM.

So Far I have not used Gyros, but it turns out I have some laying around as I am also into flying RC Planes and Choppers. I may actually try that some day, but am hesitant because I am worried I may like it and get used to it (or not) then loose any skill I may have gained if I never used a gyro. I have heard people talking about this, but I dunno, part of me is a little funny about doing it. I have a Helli Rudder Gyro which I imagine would be perfect for it and super crazy easy to install as it has servo pass through, by that I mean it has a cable coming from it that plugs in to your receiver, and your steering servo cable plugs straight into a slot on the Gyro, double sided tape & Shazaam, but I am scared it will work, then that could even ruin what I love about the hobby, so I just dont know if I should even dare to try it LOL. my Gyro is an Eflite brand Heading hold something or rather, with gain control pot on it. it was the rudder stabilizer from my now defunked Blade 400.

One thing I would like to try, but would prolly need a micro controller added as well like the arduino, is using a gyro to stabilize the car in flight. (this all came about while day dreaming) I wondered if I could add a gyro on the throttle Servo to modulate throttle to keep the car level in flight (or any particular angle) the problem is how will it behave whil not in flight, you would then need an arduino or other micro controller to determine with accelerometers weather or not you are in fact in flight etc. All food for though. Happy Racing ;)
 

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Gyro's are illegal in offroad RC racing, (probably other forms as well) & is considered as cheating, been a bit of talk about them for a while & I think a couple of people were caught a while back (not in Australia) & received an instant DQ from the event they were at, plus being known as cheats.
Best to forget about them & drive the buggy as it is, or if you do try using one then just don't do it while racing, last thing you would want is to be accused of is cheating while racing.
Good club up there at Barmah, raced there once a while back, & Shepp a few times, Matty G is fast hey, plus a few others from around that area, Matts buggy always looked like it was on rails.
 
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